Thread:Jens Ingels/@comment-118323-20131206194317/@comment-3271569-20131207160717


 * note: English is not my main language.

Hi Trevor, I indeed turned the new VisualEditor off with good reason. Like I mentioned in Bert's blog. If you want I try to explane it here an bit more in detail:

The Source Mode
Even with all those new features the source mode will never replace everything mentioned on an wikia page.

An example
Hidden characters in the source mode already cause so many problems. I believe the best example we had on that was that someone used another hex letter that litterly breaks some of our switch templates. Offcourse this was an rare case and even if the bug was caused by an bad keyboards things like that are almost impossible to track down by an regular user even more experienced users is certains. We litterly worked 2 months to track all of them down with bots and complex programs and whe are still not sure this bad letter is fixed on all wikia pages. This is maybe an extreem example but I think when limiting the source editor you will just ask for more of these problems that can't be fixed by an regular user.

Stimulate the use of the source mode
People should get stimulate to use the source mode. Simply because it allows you to have an straight controle how your page should look like. An  can easy frustrates an regular user when working in the visualy editor and will not be able to fix it if he doesn't known how to acces the source mode. Another example is when user copy/pass stuff on an external site. I actualy created an template for this to help the regular user:

Believe me or not, I actualy learned all my html, css and javascript by editing the wikia by using the classic editor system. My fellow admins learned certain of these thing on the same way. The actualy problem with the classic editor now is that certain default edit techniques are no longer possible in the visual editor what forces the default user into the source mode. I would like you to see this example: Eggs. Here I tryed to bypass certain limitation to get the wanted lay-out from it. I also tryed to use so many scripting as possible in order to prevent that the visual editor breaks because of certain limitions. But I failed since even if I would remove most id and span tags I will still endup with the limitation of an page that is to large to handle to classic visual editor. Even with the new visual editor their will always become new edit techniques available that will break it. No the source mode should be stimulate. The new visual editor should simply be improved to the gap between the two becomes smaller and an new user actualy can help editing more advanced pages.

Another example
Currently when I update the Eggs page. An new user bounce against the following problems:
 * 1) Forced source mode
 * 2) Even if the visual editor would be available the user will still be limited when he attempt to add an new egg:
 * When he add an the dragon link he wouldn't be able to add the span tag arround it.
 * When he add the image he wouldn't be able to add an link, description or other style to the image.
 * Basicly the only thing he would actualy be able to add without any problem would be the hatching time. And that's just because their is no hatching category added to this cell yet.

So what the visual editor actualy need would be this:
 * Add an option to get an popup that contains the source of the link or an option that make it possible to actualy mark and span class arround the link. This me it's used on many wikia's where people use links where the link is in the same color as the text.

Here's an 5 seconds raw photoshop example how this would be solved:

In this example I used the to indicate if their are codes marked arround the link name. When marked gray no codes are marked arround it. If you click on the icon an popup will apear where you find something like this:

" Character " inside an input field. Here can you add an span or some other code arround the text. You wouldn't be able to press ok until the marking is closed. This way people will be able to actualy see if their are hidden codes on the pages without having to change the lay-out for it.

The show code option is the second idea that I want to suggest. This way people can actualy check what codes has been created by editing an link. This is an hugh tool to understand how the code actualy works and learning how to work in the source mode.

Edite Sections
I can only say one thing about this: We need this option back. The main reason why people actualy use edit section is because editing an part of an large page is actualy better for the following reason:
 * Large Pages (content sided)
 * Loading Time
 * Prevent misediting when the content is similar

Instant of banning it we actualy need more support for it. The best example for it I again refer to the Eggs page where I use an script to actualy move the header inside the table in order to prevent the mobile skin for ignoring the collapse. I actualy discussed some scripts some time ago with some people if we couldn't code edite section links on our pages. I believe that's something you should look into. Since currently we have them that work like this:  or something. Why you don't create something like this:,. I believe this easy be add as an option to the visual editor like in my image example on the previous section. Like adding an to the input from link similar I suggest with name to add the #id or ?header options.

Offcourse their can away be an delay load on the background for the entire page so you can easy switch to the full page or editsection with an move to buttom or something (jumpmenu).

Option Suggestions

 * Copy/Pass option popup [copy text only, copy with style, copy with css (admin only)]. The 3th option could be used to automaticly add the css to the "wikia.css". Offcourse there should be an popup when their is an conflict. It should not be intented to be for everything. I just believe it could be intressting for less experienced admins that start an wikia. Maybe even an option to turn it off this 3th option on certain large wikia's.
 * Hyperlink expansion: Like I mentioned
 * Section Support: Like I mentioned
 * Relocate Source Mode Buttom
 * Category Support Located on Template: I think the best example for this is Template:Dragon Content. In an large wikia like ours it no longer intressting or even possible to code certain of our categories manuel. I would like to see an option so the visual editor actualy would be able to see these categories. This include hidden categories. Even if they are uneditable from the page location people should known they are already their.
 * Templates Option should be expand. Including the mention what templates are located on that page.
 * Script Mention: Able to get an popup by pressing an buttom to actualy see what scripts from the common.js are running including your personal script that effect the page. Even if they are not running during the edit.
 * Css Mention: Able to get an popup by pressing an buttom to actualy see what css is active on that page. Even if they are not active during the edit.
 * etc...

End
Their are probaly are still an lot feedback I forgot to mention here. I hope this feedback already helps to make the new visual editor better. If I got some time left I will try to give some more visual feedback.